MikuPa and Saigo no Kanshasai – Concert Results and Reactions
The two day back-to-back Vocaloid concert set that occurred on 3/8 and 3/9 respectively have been viewed by tens of thousands. It’s time for someone from Vocaloidism to highlight what we’ve seen, and to weigh the impact. Have a look after the break.
As one of the many online viewers who paid the $40 fee to view the livestream of both MikuPa and Saigo no Kanshasai, and as one of the ones that wrenched himself out of bed at 4:30 AM to hook up my HDMI cable to the TV so I could watch it on a bigger screen, I think it’s time to weigh in on what I saw.
The day started with the two MCs of the concert coming out to say hello, do introductions, and announce all of the rules and audience interaction sections. This is fairly standard for a MikuPa, and I’m quite familiar with the one that Danny Choo gave us for Mikunopolis (camera shy my butt).
What occurred after was a show that is what I would call a staple of the Vocaloid concert franchise in the last year, spectacular visuals and effects that really exhibited what the virtual technology is capable of. There were two performances of this concert, each with about 2,500 people attending. The detail level had been upped significantly since Mikunopolis. There were some excellent electronic-glow effects that seemed to be a theme throughout the concert, and they used the second screen, lasers, and props to put on a spectacular light show.
Many of the Vocaloid Ps were there to perform, some for the first time:
• Agoaniki (Double Lariat)
• OSTER project (Marginal/Love Colored Ward)
• tokuP (ARiA)
• buzzG °
• LamazeP (Popipo)
Each of these were called out in turn, and got some mild camera time. Many of the Ps were live-tweeting the concerts before and after their sets. I’d go into detail of each one individually, however since I’ve got two to review, I’ll be sticking to a select few reactions. For the full playlist, follow this link: http://mikubook.com/setlist/mikupa2012inTokyo.
When the lights went down the crowd was pumped like it was the first concert all over again. And for the start, it was just that, highlighting some of the best of the overlooked in past MikuPa. OSTER came out on Keyboard for Marginal, and then stayed for Love Colored Ward. Love Colored Ward was, I felt, a mistake.
Originally LCW and the outfit were introduced in Singapore, but this time, they introduced those gigantic pink balloons, which got in the way of the camera during this song and the next. Also, I’m not completely sure why this one was chosen specifically, as OSTER has plenty of more popular tunes than this to her name.
Despite my complaints, it did start the costume-change portion of the show, the gray Rolling Girl outfit making an appearance, a new kimono during My Time, Popipo, and Hello Planet (if you look carefully, the fan on her back says Hatsune Miku on it). The Rasetsu to Mukuro outfit for Mitsunde Hiraite followed. Everyone knows that I’m not a fan of that song, however the crowd went crazy, and that I really loved. The Infinity outfit came with the Intense Song of Hatsune Miku, which was essentially a carbon copy of the Singapore concert, from what I understand.
From there we hit the guest star section, starting out with what I personally thing was one of the best and most unexpected songs of the night, RIP=RELEASE. Following that up with Double Lariat, and a new blue Chinese dress for Luka Luka Night Fever ended a great set.
The twins were next with Melancholic leading some of the more vintage of their compositions. Daughter and Servant of Evil turned out to also be a carbon copy of a past concert, except with some red drapery surrounding the stage (nice touch though). Len’s feature of the night was the full version of Fire Flower, and the only thing that could have made it better was having Halyosy there to perform. That lead into the big surprise feature, which was actually teased in graphics days before the concert, Kaito took the stage singing Pane Dhiria. I thought it would be 1000 Year Solo, but I was proved wrong. A shame they chose such a short song for his performance, but he looked great performing it.
Miku returned to the stage for the rest of the concert, performing more of the staple songs from past concerts, including Yellow and Kocchi Muite Baby, also displaying some of the staple outfits as well.
The encore was a four-set, featuring ColorfulxMelody, Uta ni Katachi (the carbon copy of the Singapore version), Melt (a fan favorite), and a modified Starduster that I could listen to every day for the rest of my life and never get bored of. All the performers appeared on stage to say farewell, and that really was a great moment.
When the house lights went up, and I turned off the lights to go get more sleep, I came away from it impressed with what was shown for the most part. I know a lot of it was essentially a reshowing of old material, but it was in a way that felt fresh. Miku didn’t take up the entire night, and the guest set was one of the best put together of all of them. The Ps could have gotten a lot more screen time than they did, but at least they announced who was there as they were performing. The only major gaff was Love Colored Ward and those damned balloons.
3/9 Saigo no Kanshasai
This concert was also sold out for two performances, about 2,500 attendees each. I started the stream right in the middle of the introduction by the MCs, who were the same as the day before. However to get the crowds warmed up, they brought out all four girls in Danceroid to do a set of four songs, including their staple, Luka Luka Night Fever. Now I’m familiar with the two that came to LA for Mikunopolis. They were staying in my hotel and we ran into each other in the elevators quite a few times, and I also saw their warmup performance. Comparing then to today, it felt like their choreography was off somewhat. It felt like they were either out of step, or didn’t have enough stage room to work with (the curtain was down, so there wasn’t much forward or back to use). After they finished, the MCs returned to do their standard messages.
When the house lights went down, the curtain didn’t go up, instead a projector displayed the opening credits, in English, with a summary of all the concerts around the globe thusfar. The original team had been assembled, happy drummer and all, as well as the strings that came to Mikunopolis, and a brass section that was a new addition.
The Vocaloid Ps were also there to perform, though they were uncredited in the opening movie:
• OSTER project °
• samfree (Promise)
• DECO*27 (Yume Yume/Ai Kotoba)
• tokuP (SPiCa)
• North-T (Time Limit)
• VocaliodP °
• LamazeP (Popipo)
I said they were there, though you wouldn’t know it. They were not recognized audibly like the concert the day before, and they also got little to no screen time.
Once the curtain went up, you knew this concert was going to be very different. The set was toned down from its radical design from the day before, and Tell Your World was the first opening. It turns out it was symbolic, because a new project was announced the same day. The next song was essentially to remind everyone about Project Mirai, with Yume Yume. This continued into what came as no shock to anyone, World is Mine, which hadn’t changed a lick since the first concert. Sadly, that was the tone with this entire concert, things we’ve seen before. Clover Club was identical to Mikunopolis, down to the Red Ridinghood outfit (that dog hasn’t changed its >_< face in nearly a year, and my face was T_T the entire time).
A semblance of new content appeared with the American Outfit design, which looked much shorter than the original drawing by a lot.
The only problem was the accompanying song was Popipo, and not just that, but the Mikunopolis version of Popipo (both languages). Didn’t we just hear this yesterday, and got tired of Lamaze’s goofy dance then? Once again it degenerated into a copy, with the same Romeo and Cinderella I saw a year before.
Considering the playlist so far, I wasn’t surprised when Ura-Omote Lovers came on, however what they did with it shocked me, as they used a modified version of the PJD Extend choreography, and some very well-coordinated camera work to put on an actually very good performance. It was definitely Miku’s highlight of the night. The next three didn’t even have a costume change, and Moon was as bland as at Mikunopolis. Seriously they should have done better choreography on that by now, but all they did was project a moon above her.
While Miku rebooted after Disappearance, the second hinted-yet-surprising guest showed up. Meiko, singing shu-t’s Change Me, in the red ballroom outfit. She was very well received, just like Kaito the day before. It makes me wonder why they didn’t bring them in sooner.
Then we get onto the highlight of the night in my view. Len flew it solo for Butterfly on My Right Shoulder, wearing the Negi outfit. This one was all new choreography, and dropping Rin from the performance made all the difference. Len was more expressive and free to move around, and it gave the entire rendition new life.
After that came the biggest gaff of the night, which was Just Be Friends. Why would you put Luka in the slutty streetwalker outfit for JBF?
It just doesn’t make sense. The choreography doesn’t match, the lyrics don’t match, nothing about it matches! You could have at least used the blue outfit with the jeans from Extend. That would have made sense, right?
Moving on from there, Miku and Luka donned their Yukatas for magnet, which was a far better song than Mikunopolis’s Worlds End Dancehall. Speaking of which, WEDH was next, with Miku in her Ura-Omote outfit, and Luka debuting a new wowaka-themed outfit that looked perfect on her.
A well-done introduction to be sure, and I hope that becomes a PJD Extend DLC. After Rin did an unsurprising performance of Meltdown, I thought that would be the end of the guest portion, but they pulled a surprise move of returning her in the Negi outfit and a guitar to do Kodoku no Hate.
I actually kind of wished they had Len there with her, because she was lacking some of that interaction that the Extend video brings. But she wasn’t done there, because Promise came up next (same choreography, different outfits).
The rest of the night featured Miku and props. Mainly a microphone, but she did break out the guitar for Puzzle. No costume changes came around for this one, and nothing new was introduced. The fans had to really work for the encore. They were chanting “Miku” for a good five minutes before the band took the stage again, this time in MikuPa T-shirts. Ai Kotoba brought out Melt… which we heard the night before… and then The First Sound, which lacked a lot of the emotion that I felt during the Mikunopolis encore. The second encore took much less effort when everyone kept yelling “Mou iikai!” They brought out Project Diva desu, and the Danceroids and some backup dancers to perform and exhibit the band, before lapsing into the second major gaff of the night, another identical performance of World is Mine. What, seriously? Couldn’t have ended it on a higher note than that? Maybe a new dance? Anything?
When the house lights went up, I realized I nearly fell asleep sitting there four different times. The theme of this concert was, without a doubt, musical rendition. Orchestral and Live remixes of the classic Vocaloid tunes took over the stage. It breathed new life into some, but detracted from others. But despite the new horn section, improved choreography in two places, and two never-before-seen outfits, it felt like I was watching Mikunopolis all over again. I found myself to be very bored with the performances, as they toned down the special effects and said goodbye to the second projector screen. And in the end it was only Miku who said goodbye. This was the Kanshasai finale, one meant to blow everything before out of the park, to leave on a high note. It failed, pure and simple. What they did was not enough to impress me, and I almost wish I had my money back for that day.
The Two Day Event
Overall, the event was a mixed bag of greatness and meh. MikuPa was a show of lights and colors that really shows the potential of the medium, while Saigo no Kanshasai exhibited more low key, musical arrangement changes to the classics of Vocaloid concerts thusfar. The former felt fun and mostly fresh, the latter felt boring and more laid back. However neither of them did what they should have for the Vocaloid Ps. Their appearance was only highlighted to those in the audience, and got very little screen time. It was like the producers of the event forgot where the music they were playing came from, and why Miku got popular in the first place. It was a shameful display, a lack of consideration that should never have happened, and I am sorely disappointed. They need to be reminded of these things before the next concert, if one ever happens, because moving away from the core of what makes Vocaloid special will only serve to doom it. That’s something I never want to see happen.
° I did not see this artist shown at the event proper, either due to their absence or failure in the videography to display them properly. Though many claimed to have seen them, I certainly missed them.
39 thoughts on “MikuPa and Saigo no Kanshasai – Concert Results and Reactions”
LOVE COLORED WARD IS THE BEST! GET A LIFE HOOKER!
Anal anguished. Editorials are opinion articles. If this guy doesn’t like it, then he doesn’t like it. At least come up with a better insult than “hooker”.
WHO CARES I GOT WHAT I WANTED AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS, BUT THEN A GAIN I ALWAYS HAVE GOTTEN MY WAY.
I can’t believe there’s someone like this in Vocaloid Community. But, oh well…
I do like Love Colored Ward and always play it in PJD2nd. But when the song was played in the concert, I felt that it didn’t fit to be a song for the concert. I prefer Koi Suru Vocaloid to be on the concert IMO. But, hey, everyone has their own opinion. You can’t force your opinion to someone else.
Keep this Vocaloid community clean, ok? 🙂
Yes lets play Koi Suru Vocaloid again(no no no no)
I wish I had a credit card to stream from nico, all the uploads on youtube were taken down due to Sega.
Great article there. And I really hope that they choose better songs. I guess it was a mistake for me to hope for Kagamine Rin’s Tokyo Teddybear to be performed? 😛 Also, the producers definitely needs more screen time D: And when Miku performed World Is Mine again as the final song I literally face palmed lol. IMO 3/8 MikuPa ended on a better note compared to 3/9 MikuPa
I wish that Rin would preform Tokyo Teddy Bear or Abstract Nonsense too, Neru is a GREAT producer, ne? 😀
Really like a Len fan I really dont like the concert
nothing new, has less songs than rin and luka
and they always use the same, len has more songs like, Nayuta, Ike Lenka,
Spice, Paradichlorobenzene, Dream Eater Monochrome.
I wanted more new miku songs like senbonzakura, 1925, or Freely tomorrow.
Also I paid for Nico Live Im from mexico the concert began at 5am and I saw almost nothing new, as past concerts and Len had few songs.Really… Spica!? was the same!!! she did all like the past concert!! D:
I’ve been researching Vocaloids for over a year now as part of my doctoral studies, and I heard about Miku back when she first went on sale in 2007. I decided that I should offer a response post to some of the comments in the review and the replies to it. I may formally join this community in the near future, or perhaps another one, or maybe even more than one, but it will depend on certain factors I see (e.g., respect for others, primarily).
Firstly, there are some inaccuracies in the review that you may want to fix. For example, the MCs were not the same between the concerts. Fujita Saki MC’ed for all the concerts, but it was Asakawa Yuu with her for MikuPa and Asami Shimoda with her for 39s / Daikanshasai.
Perhaps more importantly, I don’t agree with the generally negative review or some of the specific “gaffes” mentioned (because I don’t think they were gaffes/problems). In fact, this is perhaps the most negative review of the event that I have seen, and the overall feeling based on the polls at the end of the event was “Very Good” (max rating, over 90% of responses). For example, Koiiro Byouto (Love Ward) was a great addition because it is a sexier, crazier song than many others by Oster, and shows another side of her musical talent. The same is true for Oster being in charge of the voice manipulation for last year’s MikuPa concerts (and I’m pretty sure she did it again for this event because the spoken lines were so good). Likewise, the actual final song for 39s / Daikanshasai was supposed to be “Hajimete no Oto.” They did not have another other material prepared, so that performance exhausted their content. The only reason they did another encore with a repeat of “World is Mine” is because they audience would not leave. I think they had the extra encore performance from the concert just prior to the live stream where Miku’s voice broke halfway through “World is Mine,” and they just did it again because they needed to do something due to the audience.
The only real issue, in my opinion, is the lack of new song choices, but this is actually understandable. The concerts are made to promote the games. Sega is a game production company and publisher, not an animation studio. In fact, their license with Crypton is specifically for the games, so they might have to renegotiate their license if they wanted to do concerts as stand alone events rather than game promotions. The point is that this is why almost all the songs, costumes, and choregraphy are from the games.
I want to add a few more comments about certain points that I have seen raised here and elsewhere just to offer everyone some things to consider.
Not everyone wants to have focus on the producers. In fact, it is more likely that most people do not just as they don’t for human performers. With Vocaloid, producers get more attention than human song writers, so I think that we should be happy for that. The majority of people are not interested in creating works (80/20 rule in action). The same thing is true for any area or activity: sports, art, fashion, cooking, etc. The Google Chrome Japan CM says, “Everyone, creator” but the reality is that everyone has the potential to be a creator and that the vast majority of people have no interest in doing so. There’s nothing wrong or unusual about this, though, and it’s still a great message to send.
I have read many comments on various articles and videos complaining about wanting more of a specific Vocaloid character or characters, wanting specific songs because someone thinks they are “better,” etc. Well, for one thing, the ideas of “better” or “worse” are subjective. This is similar to some people preferring MikuPa and others preferring 39s concert format. Vocaloid allows us to create the personality and context rather than forcing a specific perception onto us. MAGES has one view, Sega has another, and if any other company ever sponsors a concert, they will have yet another perception.
As far as wanting different songs, I sort of covered that when I pointed out that the concerts (so far) have been game promotions, not stand alone events. I’d love to see Miku performing far more ballads because her ballads tend to showcase the abilities of the technology. This element tends to be somewhat hidden in faster paced, more energetic numbers. Her two harp songs (“A Silent, Moonlit Night” and “Goddess of Spring in the Moonlit Woods”) as well as “Last Night, Good Night” have a huge emotional impact, so they would be great choices. The elimination of so many ballads from the song list compared to the original 2010 39s concert has been an ongoing issue with each new concert having fewer and fewer ballads.
Lastly, there is little point in wanting a greater focus on other characters in a Hatsune Miku concert. The reason it is a Hatsune Miku concert is because she has the popularity to justify it, just like human performers who do live concerts. Aside from multi-band/performer concert events, most people would not enjoy an event that is billed as being their favorite performer but winds up being roughly equal stage time for other performers by the same label, managing company, promoter, or whatever. In fact, Sega understands that Miku (or any of the specific Vocaloid characters) is not the only star. The other “star” of the concerts is YOU (us), just as they stated at the beginning of 39s / Daikanshasai. This has also been stressed at the end of the credits for all the concerts. We are given equal billing to the performer, unlike human performer concerts.
The companies (i.e., Crypton, Sega, MAGES, NicoNico, etc) want to work with us. They and their employees are also part of the community. I have seen posts claiming that the Vocaloid community is all about sharing, but that is not true. The Vocaloid community (and any community that actually functions, really) is, first and foremost, about respect for everyone and everything. Regardless of our own preferences and philosophies, community means that we have to respect diversity and different viewpoints even if we do not agree. For example, if someone in the community asks us not to do something, then we should not do it even if we feel that it would be better to do it. The game modding community has a similar element. There have been modders who simply leave the community because they do not feel that their wishes are accepted or, even worse, their wishes have been blatantly ignored by other people. A community that alienates members (or potential members) cannot claim to be much of a community, at least in my view.
As far as preferring one character over another, that’s the same as preferring one human performer over another. I have even seen a comment claiming that the concerts are Vocaloid concerts (no, they are Hatsune Miku concerts, not Vocaloid concerts). The only way that any performer will have a live event, let alone a live tour, is if the consumer demand justifies such a project. That’s only one requirement, of course, since there are many others, but it’s the first step. If anyone wants an event featuring a certain other character, the first step would be to build a sufficient market for such a project. No matter what you may feel personally, such an effort must look at the total market in as unbiased a way as possible. For example, do we want Luka to headline her own concert? Well, then she has to have sufficient popularity and demand, but that is not the situation right now. The same is true for all the other characters. Frankly, we’re lucky that some characters are being able to ride Miku’s popularity and gain attention. That seldom happens with human performers, after all.
Okay, that’s more than enough feedback from me, I am sure. ^_^; Sorry for the lengthy post.
Lengthy, but worth the read. You seem to have done valid research and I agree with what you have to say.
1) It is possible they somehow inserted World Is Mine into the second encore due to the glitch earlier in the day. However, it sounds very unlikely that they decided to put in on simply because the audience would not leave. These are very well-planned out events, and when there is a break for encore, they don’t turn the house lights on. When the concert finally ended for both days, the lights came back up and there was an immediate announcement stating the concert was over. There is no time to gauge audience reaction and then decide whether to turn on the lights and make the announcement or not. Besides, they had all the dancers on stage doing Project Diva desu. as well.
2) Yes, SEGA admitted as such that the original Kanshasai was related to the game franchise Project DIVA. Jokingly, one person said that since they put all that effort into making these models, it would be a shame if they weren’t used for more stuff. However, 5pb/MAGES’s MikuPa had quite a different angle. There were different models, different songs and many of the songs have never showed up in Project DIVA. I’m pretty sure at this point in their evolution that it would’ve been possible to get any song, assuming the original composer was up for it. A license with Crypton would’ve only been for the character, anyway, and not the songs, unless said songs were signed with KarenT.
If we want to go off of that, then they probably should have done Sekiranun Graffiti for the encore instead of World is Mine, to round out the whole Project Diva set. Plus it would have introduced something new and exciting.
True, I think a new song would’ve been nicer, or maybe just have Tell Your World again, but with actual choreography, so that the opening and ending are the same song.
Ohh… I got responses! :O
I think that I may have been somewhat misunderstood, though. ^_^;
As far as the observation about the negative air of the initial write up, I did not mean to imply that someone might not like the events for one reason or another. That’s just like human performances, after all. I was simply pointing out a few errors (although there are others) and that some of the things that were stated as negative were not necessarily so, or did not seem to be taken in overall context.
These are planned events, yes, of course, because these are professional companies… that is, right up until one of your star performers loses her voice halfway through a song and you have to come up with a solution on the spot with the resources you have available. Such things happen all the time in live events, so it’s nothing new, really.
Hightrancesea, if I am understanding you correctly, you are suggesting that the second encore was part of the planned performance. In my view, that was not the case, and the second encore seemed to be something that was put together on the spot with the resources they had available to them in order to make up for the technical issue. It was done for the first concert, and the live stream was the second concert, so they had it available and repeated it at that time. That was exactly how it appeared to me, anyway. I agree it seemed somewhat out of place, and it was, if my impression is correct. I think it is highly unlikely that they planned for Miku’s voice to go out like that, although it is possible, of course, in order to make it more similar to something that might happen to a human. If you or anyone else took the second encore as part of the original planned event, I could see why there would be disappointment, but I really do not think it was. Besides, not only had they already done it for the prior show, but they were recording the footage for later CD and video disc release, so it makes sense to go ahead and get as much footage as possible for editing later on. I think that “Last Night, Good Night” would have made a much better finale for the encore. I guess we won’t know what they really had planned unless they say something in an interview.
I think it’s worth noting that they had Miku speak English for both her first departure prior to the encore (“Thank You!”) and when she returned (“Thank You!”) rather than Japanese (“Arigatou!”) They also had her say “Bye Bye” in English at the very end of the second encore. These elements plus the initial credits being in English seem to be aimed to her entering the international market formally, at least as far as I can see.
The models are from the games (for Sega) and inspired by the games (for MAGES). We have to remember that Marza also worked on the games, or at least PJD 2nd, anyway.
Anyone can use the songs for stuff as long as the original creators are credited (and as long as there’s nothing socially questionable such as espousing political views, etc.). Sega’s license is for the characters to do games for them, though. I may have been misunderstood about my view regarding the song selection. I wish they had other songs, too, especially ballads, which they have been removing for each concert for some reason. “Last Night, Good Night” is a particularly surprising omission since it is one of Miku’s most popular songs, its a livetune song, and it is in the games (not to mention many people want to see and hear her perform it live in concert, at least based on comments online).
Honestly, though, the main problem they have is not simply choosing songs, but rather the work required to adapt them for a live performance. They have to make new musical arrangements (i.e., they do not simply play the song live, but rather have a new arrangement based on the original song), as well as make all the animation associated with the new performance. I remember reading one interview with Itoh-san where he mentioned that the concerts can require up to a year of planning even with the canned material available from the games (unfortunately, I seem to have lost the source… grrr). I wouldn’t be surprised if this is true. Stepping back and reassessing where they are at and where they want to go in the future may be one reason they want to put the concerts on hold for now.
Sega has a major decision to make, too. They are not an animation company, after all, but rather a game developer and publisher (and, in America, they are only a game publisher since they switched from hardware and software development). If I were a company head, I would certainly go ahead and commit resources to this new form of media (i.e., live animated concerts) because it has obviously been well received around the world, but then again, that’s just me. ^_^; In fact, Crypton may have been approached by actual animation studios with offers to do the concerts. Marza has some experience in that area, but I would love to see a company like Shirogumi take over the animation chores from Marza and Sega as I think such a company has much more experiences and resources to offer. We really don’t know what’s happening internally at this point, though (unless someone has some news ^_-). Itoh-san has said that Toyota approached Crypton to use Miku as their rep for the 2011 Corolla campaign, and it wouldn’t surprise me if this was also true for Sega. I think it is quite possible that Crypton may have some offers from animation studios, so we’ll have to see what happens, I guess.
I wonder if Crypton is regretting giving Viz the North American license for Miku? I haven’t heard of any new developments since last summer’s announcement.
1) I suppose it is possible that this was a backup plan that was worked out in advance. You can’t just throw in random performances like this in such a concert without prior rehearsal and practice. Sure the 39s have played Project Diva desu. a bunch of times already now, but if they hadn’t rehearsed it beforehand, I’d think it would’ve been very hard to insert that in randomly. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if SEGA’s insider #1 is willing to spill the beans during a rebroadcast or something.
2) Sorry, but you are mistaken about how rights to a song work. The only way you can legally use a VOCALOID song is the same way you can use any other song: if you have a license with all the interested parties. If I just made a VOCALOID song now and put the MP3 on my website, you are only really allowed to listen to it. Even if you credit me, you are not legally allowed to use it in concerts, broadcast it on radio, etc. Granted, I’m probably not going to sue you since it would be a waste of time and money, but it is still technically illegal for you to use the song without my permission. However, I can make some exceptions for you to use my songs. For example, I can attach a liberal license agreement with the song, like Creative Commons or a similar license that is present for all song uploads on PIAPRO. In that case, that license allows certain uses without prior permission from me, such as for noncommercial purposes, etc.
3) Where did you hear about Viz getting the North American license for Miku?
I’d like to apologize for the long posts I have made prior to formally joining the community. This post is really a reply to Hightrancesea’s questions/comments in order to clarify things that were mentioned, but some length is necessary to do so, unfortunately.
2) Hightrancesea, what you are describing is the traditional, general copyright law regarding any and all created content. However, that is not how Crypton’s PiaPro agreement works. Their agreement has been explained in their Power Points from Itoh-san as well as elsewhere. Here is a recent (2012, Feb 2) article from the Nikkei News that includes the explanation.
In fact, Crypton has been praised for developing an “open source” business model where they do not own the content but are still a successful business. Note the following passage:
The Hatsune Miku songs used for karaoke and online games are all available for free on the Internet and have become big hits in their own right. Some songs composed by amateurs have quickly gained a following online, and companies will pay for the right to use them.
This has turned the creative process of pop music on its head. “A reverse phenomenon of professionals making use of works by amateurs is happening,” said sociologist Satoshi Hamano.
Now, for a venue like YouTube, the terms are a bit different. YouTube’s standard license (the default for uploads) includes the statement that uploaders agree that YT can use the content for its own purposes, and that “You also hereby grant each user of the Service a non-exclusive license to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such Content as permitted through the functionality of the Service and under these Terms of Service.” (see the following TOS, Section 6.C).
YT does not include the right for users to create derivative works even though they do include that right for the company. Of course, many people do so, anyway, but this might also simply be an oversight or unintended omission (such legal terms change constantly, after all). However, users do have the right to not only watch or listen to content, but also redestribute it or do other things with it as per the standard license agreement. If an uploaded switches from the standard agreement to the Creative Commons one, this would certainly include derivatives and all the other options, as long as credit is given.
For example, kz has his own YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/kzlivetune) where he has uploaded various works he has created, from the older works such as “Packaged” to the brand new, just-released “Tell Your World.”
The regular and limited edition disc releases for “Tell Your World” just went on sale, of course, but this does not stop him from also offering the content via YouTube and elsewhere. Likewise, Victor Entertainment rereleased the “Re:Packaged” album as an SHM CD, but kz still offers the content via YouTube and elsewhere. People can get it from any of these sources. It is not exclusive.
It is possible that an individual could try to offer content and state restrictive use of it, but it would be advisable to not offer such content publically because we have seen that it is difficult, even impossible, to actually prevent anyone from using it (e.g., even major companies like Sega cannot fully enforce their rights despite asking, practically begging, people to honor them, Disney characters are used without the company’s permission, etc.). Also, people have pointed out that an individual creator does not have time to reply to all the requests they might receive for permission to use their work. This is particularly true for anything that becomes fairly popular, let alone extremely popular. Even an entire day would not be sufficient to respond to individual emails requesting permission.
3) Viz announced that they had acquired the product licensing rights for Hatsune Miku last June. See this announcement on their web site.
It was also repeated via news channels such as Anime News Network.
One point about academics is that we have to restrict ourselves to certain types of sources (e.g., no wikis, no encyclopedic sources, etc.). Some academics do not always adhere to this as much as they should, but we are required to do so, at least to the best of our abilities. This is what makes researching new, fast-changing areas more interesting, and more difficult, than established areas. In fact, some areas used to be rejected for research efforts due to this factor. For example, gaming was rejected as an area for serious study for many years (and still is by some traditional academics, unfortunately).
Again, I apologize for such lengthy posts when I have not yet formally joined the community. I hope some of the information is helpful to someone, though. ^_^;
2) Which PIAPRO agreement are you referring to? There are actually multiple. The two that come to mind are:
A) the PIAPRO Character License, which allows creators to use the name and image of the VOCALOID characters produced by Crypton Future Media, e.g. Hatsune Miku for noncommercial purposes (i.e. no revenue involved). Anyone who produces a song with Miku, etc. and wants to put her name or image anywhere, such as in the title, credits, etc. has to use this license unless they have other agreements with Crypton.
B) what you agree to when you post a song on PIAPRO. PIAPRO is a social networking/sharing site for VOCALOID music, stories, art, 3d models, etc. If you post a song on there with the default options, you give users permission to redistribute the song as long as it’s for noncommercial use. You can also additionally give users the right to modify your work as well and/or allow users to use your song without crediting you. Posting on PIAPRO the site is effectively allowing you to attach a Creative Commons style license to your work. However, you also have the option of not attaching such a license and you are also not required to post your VOCALOID works on PIAPRO. Posting it elsewhere does not automatically attach this CC-like license to it.
You say that it’s best not to use second-hand sources. Therefore, I encourage you to read the actual text of the PIAPRO Character License and visit/try out the PIAPRO site:
(easy to read summary and legalese versions of the license)
(the main site)
(description of the option to not add a license to an uploaded work)
2.5) What you quoted from the YouTube agreement allows users to essentially view videos on the website (the reproduction and distribution is a catch-all to permit the transfer of video data from YouTube’s servers to your computer). The tail end of the sentence mentions that any such use has to be through the Service (i.e. YouTube) and follow the terms of service, and therefore any upload of material belonging to a third party without permission is not allowed by section 6D.
3) That’s an interesting press release. Has anyone actually followed up with them to determine what they mean by “products”? Do they mean character goods or any viable commercial product including songs? The former sounds more likely but the latter is possible. The ANN link is just a reprint; they reprint pretty much all the press releases they receive verbatim and these are not news articles that show up on the front page.
Well, I think that Hightrancesea and I can agree to disagree about our interpretation of the legal aspects. ^_^;
Disagreements occur in any line of work or research. If I ask two legal experts in intellectual property law for their input regarding the TOSes and licenses (i.e., PiaPro, CC, etc.) that we have discussed here, I will surely receive two different viewpoints and sets of suggestions regarding using such documents. My interpretation is based on sources such as interviews, presentations, etc. by Crypton, Itoh-san,Sasaki-san, as well as reviews of the company documents, including the PiaPro license and NicoNico (which I did not mention earlier).
Hightrancesea, you may want to offer a brief comment about your particular area of academic experience and professional expertise so that everyone can understand where you are coming from with your interpretation. Right now, I have no idea what your qualifications and experiences are, so I have no idea how to evaluate what you have said aside from the responses I have offered. Those replies are very general, though, and I may be lacking an understanding of context based on your experiences.
I already offered a brief introduction of myself as a doctoral student focusing on this area of research, and I’ll offer more detailed information once I have passed my doctoral candidacy exam and my dissertation proposal is approved. Anyone can agree or disagree with my views, of course, but hopefully they will understand why I say what I do based on my particular expertise and background.
If I am understanding the posts correctly, Hightrancesea seems to be claiming that original producers always retain all rights to their content even if they upload it to various content sharing services. I do not think that that is true based on the statements by Crypton et. al. as well as the TOSes for such services. Also, it does not fit with the actual reality of what people are doing as can be seen in the Google Chrome Japan commercial and throughout Vocaloid production, as well as recent official projects such as the new Google+ Hatsune Miku Creators Project. Still, this is a very new area of legal expertise (i.e., consumer generated content) so it is only to be expected that different people such as myself, Hightrancesea, and even Itoh-san and Sasaki-san or other employees of various companies and legal firms, will have different viewpoints and interpretations.
Everyone should probably keep in mind an important point that the disagreement in all fields and research areas raises, though, particularly with respect to legal concerns. The law has two aspects to it: what is literally written, and how legal writings are interpreted in court cases (i.e., legal precedent). For example, Hightrancesea is incorrect in claiming that YT’s TOS Section 6.C is merely a “catch all” for them to operate their servers and exchange data with the user’s PC because this is not what is explicitly stated in their TOS. That’s an interpretation of their intentions, but if YT attempted to offer such an argument in court, they would almost certainly lose because it is not explicitly stated. They might revise the document after losing, of course, but it does not have such a restrictive wording at this time. What is explicitly stated is that uploading automatically allows other users and YT various rights to use the content, as well as implies that certain other rights are already met by the uploader.
The law is always changing, and it is always reactive. If we attempt to make proactive laws, they almost always fail because we are attempting to predict the future, and no one knows the future. ^_^; However, the law is a human creation, so it is fallible and imperfect, thus it must always be revised and adjusted. Even legal experts such as US Supreme Court justices disagree on various interpretations of the law, and even reverse earlier legal decisions.
I have to get back to work on my upcoming doctoral candidacy exam. Thanks for the exchange of information and, hopefully, I’ll see everyone again in the near future.
Disagreements arise because there is ambiguity in the text, especially in common law countries, like the US. That is when lawyers have to turn to precedent and why lawyers have mountains of prior decisions on reference. For our current discussion, the text of the agreement is quite clear as to what is allowed and what is not allowed (except for the parts about defamation to character, etc.)
My interpretation comes from having read the entire text of the PIAPRO Character License (among others) in the original Japanese. It also agrees with my experience in the VOCALOID community, as I’ve followed the fandom for quite some time now, watching videos, listening to music, attending concerts, reading 2ch, making my own VOCALOID songs (although I still haven’t broken 10,000 views for any song video on Nico yet :/), talking to producers and fans both in real life and on Twitter.
In either case, my experience doesn’t really matter that much if you would actually just go read the full text of the license agreements (especially the Japanese ones) carefully instead of relying on things published in the general media, which is often vague or even just plain incorrect. It’s akin to relying on Cliff Notes when trying to analyze literature.
By the way, the “catch all” is required to allow YouTube to properly disseminate the video data to you, as I have explained and which you have ignored or glossed over. Yes the reasoning for placing those “catch all” terms in there is my interpretation, but that doesn’t change the fact that the distribution and copying you are allowed are only allowed through the Service _and_ if it is not disallowed by any other clauses in the agreement. Wanton copying of videos belonging to third parties violates one of the clauses and thus is not allowed.
Good luck on your candidacy exam, though I do hope in the future you actually go through more direct sources like other successful academics in your field instead of relying on what essentially amounts to heresay.
Great contribution Dave, looking forward to seeing you join the community.
Really enjoyed reading your comments and they echo much of my own feelings. I thought the concerts were once again smashing successes within the context of what they originally represent (being part of the promotion of Miku’s games and her character). If and when things get more diverse and producer centric, it will be a great day in its own right but that is not what these concerts are. I am genuinely grateful and excited for the these amazing experiences and I am glad they have really been a world wide catalyst to help increase Miku’s name recognition and popularity. Do I dream of the day where Deco*27 gets to have Miku show up and do a concert with him and his other vocalists? Sure I do, but that kind of financial/presentation model if it is ever realized can only be a future development of these events.
I really do hope these concerts continue in some fashion in the future.
As echoed by other, welcome as well.
Well, although I mostly agree with Endresak , I still think that there is no problem in letting people complain or let out their frustrations toward the show. After all, from business perspective, you can’t really expect your customer to sympathize with you, right? Well, I don’t believe that Redemption’s review is the most negative review on the internet (I don’t even think it’s negative); I’ve seen far more critical reviews on this event, although they are not written in English.
Mikupa is like an improved version of the concert at Hokkaido. Loved how they tried to have Miku interact with the audiences longer than 1-2 sentences. I was very happy that they fixed the dance for Eh,ah,sou? and Musunde Hiraite (I remember that I went face palmed the first time they had Miku did all the cute and happy poses in Eh, ah sou? and Musunde Hiraite at Hokkaido concert…). Pane Dhiria was not a very good choice for Kaito. Well, that Johny Junior dance style was not (that) bad…just did not feel right, at least for me. Koiiro Byotou would have been better without the balls bouncing around. I believe that the balls had been a good intention to entertain the audiences, albeit they overdone it orz…
Kanshasai was a mixed feeling. I’ve never like the danceroids; they are “alright” when perform individually, but most of the time it’s a disaster when they have to perform together (I have a feeling that Japanese artists are not very good at dancing together in a group, even AKB48 rarely does perfect syncs–you really got to give credits to Korean and the western artists for this). Lots of people at NicoNico are not into danceroids either (so many anti-s), so I think that it was not a very good decision to have them perform in this event.
I got really hyped when the concert kicked off with Tell Your World. However, after Clover Club kicked in, I started to notice that they were using the dance–completed with the old model from the 2010’s Kanshasai with only slight improvement in lightening effects. After awhile I start to feel that they were just screening the 2010’s Kanshasai all over again. Not that it was bad, but I was probably disappointed a little (as I really like the new model ;;) …Well, 3/8’s Mikupa did have Luka doing Double Lariat which has been performed so many times already, but it was done with an improved model so at least there was something “new” (the differences between the old model and the new one are very noticeable, especially in facial expressions and details of hair). Anyway, things got better when they started to screen things that weren’t in 2010’s Kanshasai (new models!! hooray!!). Ikemen Ren is really IkeRen (/me drools) and Rin doing a guitar solo was just so cool.
What I would really love to see in the next concerts:
1. More interactions with the audience, with more efforts to make the vocaloids speak more clearly; 3/8’s Mikupa was alright, but it was really hard to listen to Miku in 3/9’s Kanshasai without laughing because her Japanese accent was terribly weird. Geez, if those amateurs in NicoNico can produce some 30 minutes radio shows with only vocaloids talking, SEGA, you should be able to do better than that!
2. I don’t mind seeing performances of those all-time-favourites again next year…given that they do add new features to the performance, such as using an improved model, special effects or new dances. However…can we not have Clover Club again???
3. More vocaloids with props. Rin with guitar was awesome! Can we have Kaito-nii-san playing an acoustic guitar to Sennen no Dokusou ka?
4. I understand that it’s gonna be difficult but..more Kaito and Meiko please!
5. Please do not treat the producers like they are some stage decorations…
Thanks for this nice report Redemption 🙂
Two corrections though:
1) As Dave already said, the MCs were Saki & Asami, the voices of Miku & the Kagamine, I though you would have recognized her if you can recognize Dany :PP
2) Where did you get this 25k figure ??? AFAIK the Tokyo Dome City Hall can host 3.5k people top, so that would be 7k people every day. Now there’s also the streaming figures, IIRC there was around 4k people on the streams of niconico and something like 80k on NND. In any case none of those figures match very well with 25k …. Ah or maybe you’re adding the attendance in the theaters ? In Shangai they did that in a Stadium with 8k attendants, but I have no other figures for the theatres in Japan, HK & TW…
Although I also bit disappointed, but it still better than 2011 and Mikunopolis Concerts IMO
For 3/8 MikuPa :
I’m agree with Redemptions, Love Colored Ward wasn’t a good choice for concert and those pink weather (read : oversize) balloon are getting in the way of camera, and Kaito should sing another songs but I’m no big fan of Kaito.
The most unexpected for me is Luka’s blue chinese dress for Luka Night Fever, you go Girl!!
For 3/9 Saigo no Kanshasai :
Tell your world for opening are quite epic especially followed by Deco*27 Yume Yume, a total killer for me.
2 New Dance Move that I noticed, two-faced lover which better for me but worse for my friend, and Ren’s dance that somehow remind me of magicians.
Meiko in sexy red dress *faint in noseblood pool* I think I become Meiko fanboy now…..
Personally I have no problem with Luka’s Just be Friend outfit.
Overall, I think the interaction of Miku with her audience are good enough, if they can improve it, all for better. And yeah they should show the producers more, they’re the one who made those songs.
I knew the 3/9 concert would be mostly the same songs and dances. I was upset that Miku didn’t have that many costumes so it became somehow boring for me. I loved the little changes they did to the ”Melt” choregraphy.
3/9 had far, far more new material than 3/8. I’m sort of baffled by redemption2’s attitude in this article. Some things are subjective, sure, but counting the number of songs that had never been performed live before is a completely objective measure, and 3/9 puts 3/8 to shame there. And no, saying “well they were in PJD” is not an excuse. Games and live performances and totally different things…I don’t know why you would even compare them like that.
Also, what’s with these nonsensical 25,000 numbers? Pretty sure that theater doesn’t even hold that many peope. Did you add a zero? If you’re counting people viewing the livestream then it’s too small. Maybe the satellite theaters?
what bothered me the most were the models they had used they look so odd -_- or had they always looked liked this? well whatsoever lens dancing in butterfly made me wonder whether there had been a fly or had the bodymodel tried to look like a powerranger? either way i could hardly stopp laughing…ah and my eyes went like this O_O hearing “tell your world” at the begining,i loved kaito(although they could have used another song of him) and meiko
the audience made me cry and laugh whenever you heard them singing ^^
my conclusion of both concert not much had changed to much miku and to less man-power( O.o alltogher 4 song or so) but i liked it nonetheless^^
What I don’t understand is , why didn’t they put some sneak peek songs for the next Project Diva . I mean , the 2010 concert was chock-full of it (showing off some PJD 2nd songs even though it hadn’t came out yet) . And instead just rehashed all the old songs . Heck they could put in some good extend and arcade songs too , rather than the same old stuff .
Well, I had this post on my list of shit to read later because I didn’t want to ruin my own impressions before I wrote them by poisoning my own post with opinions from other people’s posts. And I only finished my post in the past day or so…
As someone who actually went out of his way to fly into Japan to attend the concert, I thought that Kanshasai was more fun than MikuPa. MikuPa on the whole gave off a “90% the same as Sapporo MikuPa” vibe for me. I’m not saying I hated it though, it was fun, even if the guys behind us didn’t stand, making it impossible for us to stand… Kanshasai felt more unique to me at the time, but reading this post, yeah… there was a lot of reuse. Well, there was a lot of reuse on both sides. Energy-wise, Kanshasai was way better for the entire crowd. I don’t know how much of that comes through on a video stream… maybe not much, huh.
The only things that truly irked me were songs which were used in both concerts.
Po Pi Po is certainly overused. It isn’t even the best song Lamaze-P ever made, yet they pull it out every fucking time. I’m a fan of the guy and I think that the organisers need to spread the love a bit more evenly. I don’t think Triple Baka is likely, but Strawberry or 1 or anything else would be totally fine.
Melt you mentioned but didn’t feel like complaining about. I feel like complaining about it because they could have used KoiSen and didn’t use it at all. And of course, going on to play World is Mine a second time just poured salt on the wound, really.
Well, nothing was so bad that it would prevent me going again if the chance appeared. I wish it were possible to get more friends in but the way the ticketing works makes it nearly impossible to get a group of people you know in the same area of the hall (the ticketing hassles are the only thing I truly *hated* about the concert.)
AWWW Congratulations Meiko and Kaito! 😀
I wanna watch this ;_;;;;
Both concerts have their ups and downs. 5pb’s first day concert had badass Kaito and a very strong ending set. SEGA’s second day concert had fucking TELL YOUR WORLD, YUME YUME, and a FABULOUSLY ANIMATED TWO FACED LOVERS. Sega’s models also looked more mature.
Love Colored Ward was a mistake. Same with SEGA wasting what could have been a great finale by playing the same song again.
Finally Meiko and Kaito in a concert! I hope they to be in the next concerts too!
I paid for the givings day one to watch it, and I felt that it was great, although they really could have made world is mine different for he end and changed the graphics a little bit. I lied the musical arrangements that they did, and really liked all the guest performances (and yes, luka’s JBF outfit was way out of touch with the song. Why not just use her chiffon dress from 2nd and extend?) I watched MikuPa on youtube, and THAT was awesome. The end of my review of two pretty good concerts.
I think that a very huge problem of vocaloid concerts [in general] is that they put TOO much attention on miku, I know she’s more famous and she’s an Icon but, please, there are Rin fans, Len fans, luka fans, meiko AND kaito fans, this is just not fair, she sings over 18 songs and the other just 3 as much, and one of those is feat miku, I mean Wtf
Wow makes me wonder if you even like vocaloids, i mean i thought the 2nd day was damn amazing, strings and horns in every song and i was totally pumped at the end when chanting for more. And then the first half of diva desu with the dancers and then all of a sudden a breakout of instruments got me so pumped then ending off with World is Mine again, i mean first time around was amazing enough then they do it again. If you listen more effort is put into the second time, they went all out for the last song of the last 39’s giving day concert.